So Your Christian Wife Cheated – Part 2: Shame Control

So your Christian wife cheated on you.  The first post in this series dealt with getting you in the right spiritual mindset:  God has your back.  Now, you need to deal with preparing for the emotional journey.

First, be prepared for the fact that this is going to hurt.   A lot.  For a long time.  This isn’t going to clear itself up in a couple of days like an Athlete’s Foot infection.  You will sometimes feel like an emotional train wreck.  You will sometimes feel utterly alone, even when you’re with friends or family. You will sometimes feel like God has totally abandoned you (but He hasn’t, trust me).   Like the damned crew of the Black Pearl in the movie Pirates of the Caribbean, you will sometimes feel absolutely nothing.  Numb.  Unable to either laugh or sink into despair.

And you will sometimes feel red-hot, blazing anger.

It’s okay to be angry.  Christians today will tell you anger is never justified.  And yet they claim to serve a Lord who actually chased people out of the Temple with a whip like a mad man.   Ignore all that.  Be angry, but do not sin.

Next, you need to be clear that this is not  your fault.  Shame will be a constant threat to you.  And you must not let the Devil shame you.  Cling to God and resist the Devil.

Your wife especially will try to shame you.  She will try to tell you she did this because she was “unhaaaaapy,” because you don’t listen to her, because you don’t communicate well, because you don’t keep the house clean (my ex-wife tried all of these).  That’s baloney.

Here  you need understand your first bit of female psychology.  Women often have a wee little furry rationalization hamster in their heads.  In the face of facts, truth, reason, or logic that point to the woman’s guilt, her little rationalization hamster will get in its hamster wheel and run as fast as it can away from reality.  But it will never get anywhere.  It’s stuck in a hamster wheel.  So she will only go in circles.

Often, such a woman’s rationalization hamster will create the idea in her head that she did such and such because she was unhappy.  She’ll do this after the fact as a way to rationalize in her mind what she did.  She won’t even realize she did it.  In actual fact, she might have been really happy right up until some suave, muscular, rich, charming, and exciting man said hello and started to flirt with her.  But after the fact, she will create the idea in her own mind that she wasn’t happy the whole time.

No, the Bible gives us only one reason that she cheated on you:  Lust.  Rank, disgusting, vile, perverted lust.  Women lust too, even though, again, a lot of Christian pastors don’t ever mention that.  They only like to talk about guys who look at porn, never about women who commit lust that leads to infidelity.  Some of it is innocent on the pastors’ part:  Because the female version of lust is much more emotionally driven than the male version, it is much easier to confuse for real love.  And pastors are at a disadvantage in understanding this because, like you, they’re dudes.

If a Christian man cheats, other Christians will tell you that it was lust in your heart and you need to own that and repent of it and exercise self-control.  They’re right, too.  Should be the same speech for a woman.

But if the woman is the one who cheats, a large number of them will say something like, “The fact that she felt a need to cheat indicates there was some deeper issue in the marriage that you both need to work together to solve.”  Baloney.   She felt a need to cheat?  Yeah, just like when a guy sees a hot blond with a low-cut top and feels a need to fantasize about having sex with her.  Seriously.  How stupid do they think you are?

This is the truth.  There is no shame.  She is the one at fault.  Think about these things before moving on.

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74 Responses to So Your Christian Wife Cheated – Part 2: Shame Control

  1. E E Baset says:

    Wait a minute. You are making VERY erroneous and wide swathing statements. Not all unfaithfulness-either from men or women are about lust. Sometimes it is loneliness. Not at ALL trying to dismiss it or excuse it, but I know several men who have cheated with women who they did not consider beautiful. Lots of reasons people are unfaithful to their marriage–lust is one….

  2. bskillet81 says:

    First, the reason human beings use wide ranging statements, and have done so throughout history, is that the vast majority of the time they are true. Science, for instance, is the practice of making wide-ranging statements about the physical world. So the fact that a statement is “wide-ranging” doesn’t negate its truth. This is a logical fallacy.

    Second, the “loneliness” excuse is almost always used to excuse women, which is, in context, how you are using it here (this post deals with female infidelity, not male). It is never used to excuse male infidelity. Much of this has to deal with a lack of understanding both of what lust is (evangelical definition is “looking at porn”), and how it manifests itself in women. I have dealt with the latter in the post “‘Guys Lust, Women Love’ and Other Lies.”

    You are trying to give yourself a bit of intellectual cover (“I know of guys who have cheated with ugly women…”) so that you don’t seem too absurd in your promulgation of Christian feminist talking points, but I have learned to see through such attempts at obfuscation. This blog, designed as a place of education and healing for Christian men, will not put up with them. Unlike much of the rest of the Christian blogosphere, I will call you out.

    Lust in the heart is the cause of sexual sin. Sin is not caused by legitimate emotional grievances. Sin is caused by the wickedness of the human heart, which is born with a spirit of rebellion against a holy God.

    Loneliness is an excuse that is simply not based in fact. The solution for loneliness is friendship and social engagement, not cheating on one’s spouse. If someone was truly lonely, that person would either press into her spouse, or find friends and family to fill that loneliness.

    There is no justification for infidelity found in the Bible.

  3. Mark says:

    I always found it interesting that the book of proverbs in the Bible has quite a few warnings to men about adulterous women, yet not a single warning to women about adulterous men.

    It is also interesting that in Corinthians when Paul talks about abstinence within marriage, he says that it should only be for a short time for the reason of praying and fasting. He also says that the husband and wife must come together against lest they be tempted into sin. In the context, that’s clearly the temptation of sexual sin. And he is talking about both husband and wife, not just the man.

  4. bskillet81 says:

    Yes. Exactly! Proverbs is written to a young man, instructing him how to live in wisdom. Almost every chapter is filled with some warning about the temptations of adulterous or otherwise sexually immoral women.

    Paul’s statement is also indicative: Women sin sexually just like men do. In fact, the Bible refers to women as “the weaker vessel,” (1 Pet. 3:7), and the context points to moral weakness, not physical weakness.

  5. deti says:

    This site is almost a public service. Obviously, it’s time we as Christian men admit that our church has failed us and has lied to us about human nature, sin nature and the nature of women. (Harsh language alert)
    1. Claim: Women are altruistic and good, always seeking the good of others.
    Truth: Women SOMETIMES are altruistic and good, and SOMETIMES seek the good of others. Women can and often do act ruthlessly in their own self interest.

    2. Claim: Women do not lie about sex.
    Truth: Women can and do lie about sex, their sexual histories and their pasts. A woman can and will lie about her past history and her partner count if she deems it to be to her advantage, or to avoid shame or guilt. It is often said that women are rarely honest about their partner counts and find creative ways to fudge their counts downward:
    “It doesn’t count because
    –it was oral”
    –it was anal”
    –it wasn’t penis in vagina”
    –I was drunk/high/stoned/sick
    –he was drunk/high/stoned/sick
    –I was on Spring Break/vacation/gone for the weekend
    –we were f***buddies
    –I didn’t orgasm
    –he got whiskeyd**k and went soft
    –it was just fingerbanging
    –I didn’t like it
    –it was a one night stand

    3. Claim: Women want soft, kind, gentle sex and need to be treated with delicacy in the bedroom. Missionary position is the only appropriate position.
    Truth: Women like soft sex only sometimes. Most prefer vigorous sex and really get off on it. And most women really like the rear entry or “doggie style” position because it requires her trust and submission. Most also like woman on top because it lets her control most of the movement.

    4. Claim: Women want to be equals in the bedroom and they don’t like giving BJs.
    Truth: Women want a man to dominate them in the bedroom. Most are not into BDSM, but most women want to be told when it is time for sex, they want to be told what to do and how to do it. Most women like to give BJs if they are told to do it and how to do it.

    5. Claim: Women never cheat on boyfriends or husbands.
    Truth: Given the right circumstances, right man, right time, and low odds of detection, many women can and will cheat. And she cheats for different reasons than men do. Men who cheat do so for sexual variety. Most women who cheat do so because they have lost attraction for their BF or husband.

    6. Claim: If a wife cheats, it is because her husband is being unkind to her.
    Truth: If a wife cheats it is because she has lost attraction for her husband. And she has probably lost attraction because he isn’t leading her and acting dominantly in the marriage.

    7. Claim: If a wife cheats, it is easy to restore the marriage.
    Truth: Wife cheating is nearly always fatal to a marriage. It is more than her losing attraction. Once a woman has lost attraction for a man it is nearly impossible for her to feel that attraction again. Both husband and wife know that once she has broken the marriage and sought sex from another man, she has fully, totally and completely rejected her husband. She has sent the message to her husband that another man is better able to satisfy her. Another man is better, stronger and more suitable. Her husband is not good enough and an unacceptable mate. It is nearly impossible for a marriage to recover from such utter and complete rejection.

    8. Claim: Women are always kind and caring to their husbands or boyfriends.
    Truth: Women are sometimes kind and caring. But, women have a capacity for verbal and emotional cruelty than men cannot even approach. Once a woman is no longer in love with a man, she moves on from him and forgets him as easily as if she had never known him.

    9. Claim: Christian women are different, more spiritual and less hypergamous than nonChristian women. Christian women are better suited to marriage and motherhood because of their spiritual discipline and training.
    Truth: In terms of attraction, mating and basic sexual behavior, Christian women are no different from their secular sisters. They’re Christian, but they’re still women. Hypergamy is far worse among Christian women because they are raised from young childhood as “daughters of the King” and taught to “never settle” for just any man. They are told from childhood that God is “preparing a man just for you” and he will be perfect because God is perfect and God makes no mistakes and God is not a man and does not lie. In marriage, many Christian women are fed scriptural support for their beliefs, requiring the man to love sacrificially and unconditionally, but he must earn her respect.

  6. deti says:

    10. Claim: Christian women are less prone to divorce than nonChristian women.
    Truth: This is only somewhat true. The US national divorce rate is around 50%. The divorce rate for all those claiming Christ is 38%.

    11. Claim: Christian women never have sex before marriage.
    Truth: Given the right man, right circumstances, right time and low risk of detection, many Christian women will be willing to have premarital sex. Certainly not all do, but many have.

    12. Claim: Women never act selfishly.
    Truth: Women are capable of acting in their own self interests as much as any man. A woman is capable of fraud, deceit, manipulation, cunning, lying, ruthless self-interest, obfuscation, rationalization, shading the truth, and more

  7. bskillet81 says:

    Your point about wife cheating is excellent. Women are instinctively hypergamous creatures, and since she has convinced herself that another man is a more dominant/masculine/virile/wealthy etc mate, it goes entirely against her hypergamous instincts to return to her lesser man. It is very hard for her to do.

    As well, women seem to have an extremely hard time admitting sexual fault. Most guys who go through a wife-cheating will tell you that she tried very hard to make it seem like her husband’s fault. I am not entirely sure why this is (perhaps you can enlighten me), but their rationalization hamsters are hard little buggers to pin down. I think for the average woman, her view of herself as this pure virtuous virgin is so central to her identity that she can’t let it go without a complete hamster-ectomy.

    It would be interesting to see how many marriages where the woman cheated and the guy wrongly admitted it was his fault end up with her cheating again. I’m guessing not a few.

  8. Jennifer says:

    It’s good to have encouragement for men suffering from adultery. I’m sorry you believe that most women want to be dominated in sex, Deti.

    “I always found it interesting that the book of proverbs in the Bible has quite a few warnings to men about adulterous women, yet not a single warning to women about adulterous men”

    Yes..because it was written to a man. And probably because men were allowed legal adultery through polygamy back then. Bskillet, more than women have what are distastefully called “rationalization hamsters”.

  9. bskillet81 says:

    So because Proverbs was written to a man, that makes its warnings about sexually immoral women somehow suspect? Would you be more likely to accept it if it were written to a lesbian warning her?

    Something being written to a male audience doesn’t somehow make it untrue.

    As well, in re: hamsters, please read the last few paragraphs of The “Double Standard” Double Standard to understand the logical fallacy you are committing. I won’t generally give “But men do it too!!” arguments much leeway because 1) If you just want to discuss ways in which men are sexually sinful, you are free to go to the other 99.9% of Christian websites, many of which completely ignore the other side of the coin; 2) as shown in the aforementioned post, this cry of “double standard” is used inconsistently, which is a standard tactic of feminists in Christianity; and 3) this is a place–and especially this post in particular–that focuses on men who have been victimized by women.

    Finally, experience has shown that women are much more prone to rationalization than men. Men are less likely to put up with other guys rationalizing behavior, because it is a sign of weakness, whereas true masculine courage simply does what it does and then either stands fast on its conscience or admits culpability or states ambivalence. But when a woman rationalizes, it’s all “You have to be true to yourself” and “You GO girl!” Why, for instance, have polls shown that women are much more likely to lie about having an affair?

  10. 7man says:

    Lust is coveting something that does not belong to you. Arousal is not necessarily lust. Modern Christians don’t understand this.

  11. Jennifer says:

    Of course there are reasons other than lust to cheat, and you DO become lonely if your spouse shuts you out; many men struggle with sexually cold wives. But lust is always a big reason, present in every adultery case, and if a spouse is lonely they need to make steps to change that in their marriage; cheating never fixes anything. If a spouse cheats and then brings this lonely/unhappy excuse nonsense out of the blue, their partner can be certain they’re full of bull, since they for some reason didn’t see a need to voice their problems before hopping in the sack with someone else (in other words, there weren’t really any problems, except their own disloyalty).

  12. 7man says:

    Why are you sorry for what Deti believes? Why is it a distasteful to use a humorous euphemism to describe the emotional based behavior that women use to justify acting on their tingles?

    Women DO get tingles for dominant men. God made them that way. How easy is it for a woman to be submissive (follower) if a man is not dominant (leader). There is a hierarchy, not an inequality. Christian men should be encouraged to be more dominant in a benevolent way, rather be than taught to appease and supplicate to women.

    Is she to set her own mission in life or is she to support his mission? Who is supposed to be the leader?

  13. Jennifer says:

    “So because Proverbs was written to a man, that makes its warnings about sexually immoral women somehow suspect?”

    I did not say that at all; I said that the male audience was the reason adulterous men were not mentioned. No one should find that “interesting”, as another poster put it, or imply that it made some statement about women’s likeliness to cheat; the reason is obvious and logical.

    I am not saying you must include men too in every discussed sin; I’m simply tired of associating rationalizing to women alone, and saying women have rodents in their heads, which people do constantly on all the numerous MRA sites I’ve come across. I’ve seen both sexes be treated in very lopsided manners, and it gets tiring; with the hamster thing, I’ve just had some bad experience with smug people writing me off even when I tried to explain myself, and accusing me mockingly of “rodent” thinking. Just last night I spent some time dealing with a real feminist, explaining that single moms and divorce laws ARE a problem, and it’s especially tiring standing up for both sexes at different times and having whichever one you’re NOT currently sticking up for call you a hater.

    For the record, I despise the “you go girl” justification junk; I wrote a review on Amazon against a “comedy” about middle-aged cows cheating on their husbands; ugh.

    “Why, for instance, have polls shown that women are much more likely to lie about having an affair?”

    Guilt and fear; they know their blame. Generally it’s the more sociopathic kind that doesn’t, but it can be interesting trying to figure out which people convince themselves they’re right, and which ones don’t care. Interesting and scary. Thanks for listening.

  14. Jennifer says:

    “But when a woman rationalizes, it’s all “You have to be true to yourself” and “You GO girl!””

    Hmm. Perhaps women DO rationalize more now, because they’ve been encouraged to do so.

  15. 7man says:

    ” I always found it interesting that the book of proverbs in the Bible has quite a few warnings to men about adulterous women, yet not a single warning to women about adulterous men. “

    Although both are sins and carry the same eternal penalties (the wages of sin are death), the temporal (worldly) consequences of sins are not necessarily the same, unless the brain structures and thought processes of men and woman are identical. Since God has created men and women with different roles, it would be logical to conclude that the consequences of their sins may manifest differently.

  16. Jennifer says:

    Moral weakness? Not my understanding.

  17. Jennifer says:

    CL doesn’t have her own mission in life?

  18. I have never understood why people don’t admit the obvious: when a man penetrates a woman, there is always an element of conquest, of the taking of territory. If a wife allows another man to do this to her, other than her husband, it is a deep betrayal. The man who cuckolds another man will likely feel pride at humiliating another man in the most intimate way possible.

  19. 7man says:

    The comments at Is it true that “Women Are Less Principled Than Men” ??? illustrate the difference between men and women about their understanding of principles, which are important to morality.

  20. 7man says:

    “Perhaps women DO rationalize more now, because they’ve been encouraged to do so.”

    This is like admitting that something might be true and blaming someone else.
    Translation: “Yeah, but they he me do it.”

  21. bskillet81 says:

    Lust isn’t so much a reason as the cause. I know this sounds self-contradictory, but I mean lust is the necessary condition (and it can be the sufficient condition as well) for adultery.

    As for people’s reasons, we need to tread lightly here. The human memory is very malleable, and the human tendency isn’t so much to be somehow unhappy in the marriage, and then cheat, as it is to cheat, and then create self-justifying memory and emotions after the act.

    Or it can happen leading up to the act. A woman will notice a guy, they start to flirt, and in order to silence the cognitive dissonance that arises from her wanting to start an affair, she has to create some kind of justification. Her memory being malleable, she will tend to create or skew her memory of her marriage in order to come up with an emotional justification.

    This is why the common Christian response to female infidelity of telling a man to think about what he might have done to cause her to cheat is so very dangerous and irresponsible. No man is perfect, no marriage is perfect, and his malleable memory can also come up with tons of reasons to shame himself for his wife’s sin. All this does is shift the focus in therapy or discussions to his bad behavior as a husband. The result is that she never needs to repent. This is why, unlike the common practices of psychology, Christians must cling to the Bible’s clear understanding of sin, guilt, and repentance.

  22. CL says:

    Exactly DC. 7man and I were having a conversation a couple of nights ago about how cheating effects a man and a woman differently and this sums up the how nicely.

  23. CL says:

    Of course I have a mission in life, but since I have accepted 7man’s headship and leadership, my mission is under his. It is, therefore, a sub mission. Believe it or not, I am happy with this and feel stronger in my mission than I would trying to do it alone. Together we can accomplish much more than either of us could alone. I support him; he protects me. It’s an exchange in which neither loses anything and both gain enormously.

  24. Jennifer says:

    That’s not remotely what it does, 7man; it’s the same effect as giving people too much power.

  25. Jennifer says:

    So it’s only conquest on his part, David?

  26. Jennifer says:

    Yes, it is typical Roissy-think, and justification for his behavior.

  27. Jennifer says:

    Yes, a malleable memory is a very dangerous thing.

  28. CL says:

    He said there’s always an element of conquest. Read things more than once before you comment.

  29. Jennifer says:

    I did, CL. I was asking if only the male “conquests” in such an act; I thought they were both taking and giving their bodies.

  30. CL says:

    ‘Conquest’ is a distinctly masculine kind of act. The idea of a woman conquering a man is a pretence. She entices; he initiates. As I wrote in my post, If you don’t claim her, someone else will, [h]e is the initiator, she is the receiver, he receives through giving, she gives through receiving. Actually, 7man wrote that particular sentence – he gave it to me, I received it, we both gained something, but no one ‘took’ anything.

  31. Jennifer says:

    Oookaayy. If I saw sex as a one-sided conquest of him taking ownership of my body, I’d despise it.

  32. Jennifer says:

    Happy Easter folks. Good meeting you, Bskillet.

  33. Brendan says:

    I think the only reason you would think that way, Jennifer, is either (1) feminist brainwashing or (2) bad experiences sexually.

    In sex, the man does “take” the woman. In good sex, this is done passionately but lovingly, but it is still a “taking” of the woman’s body. Even the feminists realized this when they described heterosexual sex as an “occupation”, and decried the heterosexual sex act as fundamentally demeaning (in their view) because it involved, intrinsically, the penetration/occupation/taking of the female body by the male body. Feminists complained about this for the reason you mention — that’s an ideology-based complaint. It is a complaint that cries out against biology.

    Note that the fact that sex is conquest/taking/possession of the woman by the man does not mean that it isn’t supposed to be done in a passionate and loving way — it is. But it’s still fundamentally a taking.

    To be quite honest I was more sympathetic to the feminist criticism here before I got married (I was a virgin when I married, as was my ex-wife). However, experience with actual sex (and my ex is no submissive wallflower Quiverfull type — she’s a bossy, pushy, ballbusting feminist business executive these days) confirms what CL and 7man (and a ton of other people) have rightly observed: when you take the conversation away from the theoretical/ideological and actually are in bed with the door closed, the reality of sex, and the reality of female desire, becomes obvious and ideologies fall by the wayside (even if they are picked up again, as masks, once the door reopens).

  34. bskillet81 says:

    Men may engage in rationalization, but in my experience it is not as deep-seated as it is with women. At any rate, this post focuses on women who are cheating, or men.

  35. Jennifer says:

    Yeees, and it’s a “taking” of the male body too. The one-sidedness of it, like she’s the only one who’s vulnerable, is what disgusts me.

  36. Jennifer says:

    The male occupies the female body, and she swallows him whole and holds him by his most vulnerable organs inside her; I see this as a mutual giving. Feminists were upset because they took it personally, seeing it as a thievery and a picture of occupation and ownership only on the part of the male. Patriarchals who see it the same way, and advertise it as part of a woman’s desire to be made entirely pliable and subjugated to him, make me despise their beliefs all the more; no wonder feminists loathe such a picture, but they make the mistake of attaching every man to the patriocentric way of thinking, and ignore the mutualities that occur in male and female relations. I won’t make the same mistake.

  37. 7man says:

    “Patriarchals…
    …ignore the mutualities that occur in male and female relations.”

    You are an amazing woman, Jennifer. You understand what is going on in the minds of “Patriarchals,” whom you despise, better than the best Game guys understand what goes on in the mind of a woman.

    In order to totally evolve beyond the despicable “patriocentric way of thinking” and fully experience the ” mutualities” of true equality, do you plan to raise your income to that of the exceptionally intelligent man you will marry or have him lower his income to match yours? Then in order to maintain these utopian ” mutualities,” do you have a plan to grow your income at the same rate (even as you have it all, including children) as he rapidly advances in his career?

    Maybe in such a marriage, Rock-Paper-Scissors can be used to determine who makes the final decision when there is a disagreement.

  38. Jennifer says:

    Indeed 7man, the gamers are the superior ones, constantly telling me what I really want and desire! Such experts. As for patriarchals, I deduce from what they themselves tell me. Let’s see: feminists say, “Men just want to dominate in everything and see sex as a kind of conquering!” To which I would always respond, no, they don’t, and women don’t see it that way either, nor desire it; then of course people of your beliefs come along and go, “Um actually, the feminists are right, they just don’t like this natural order.” And you expect me to give such people more credit than what they ACTUALLY say. You think I don’t pay attention to belief patterns, 7man, or see the same way of thinking repeated over and over? It’s easiest to persuade others that men should lead if others believe that women are wayward, and viola, Roissy’s “women are less principled” thing and Alte’s “Women are amoral” post on her first blog. I’ve seen the most extreme sides and the results of them, but if I point any of them out, I’m acting more presumptious than gamers; lol.

    “In order to totally evolve beyond the despicable “patriocentric way of thinking” and fully experience the ” mutualities” of true equality, do you plan to raise your income to that of the exceptionally intelligent man you will marry or have him lower his income to match yours? Then in order to maintain these utopian ” mutualities,” do you have a plan to grow your income at the same rate (even as you have it all, including children) as he rapidly advances in his career?”

    LOL There’s more to equality than who has a job, or I would be caught up in the same useless and bloody scrabble you describe. Rock, paper, scissors, that’s EXACTLY how egalitarian couples work things out; you know them so well.

  39. Jennifer says:

    And btw, I referred to a particular type of patriarchal, not EVERY kind of complimentarian; I know better, unlike those who lump me in with radical femmies. I would not lump in Kelly Crawford, Elisabeth Elliot, or my friend Kathy with such people, based once again on what they say themselves.

  40. CL says:

    Honey, stop winding Jennifer up now. Jennifer, unbunch your panties. This is just how it is – a woman can only pretend to conquer a man; a man can actually conquer a woman. It’s just the physical reality. It’s this precise reality that causes radical feminists to proclaim such lunacy as “all heterosexual sex is rape” (Andrea Dworkin, whom I doubt had to worry about such things).

  41. Jennifer says:

    7man, in this statement:

    “no wonder feminists loathe such a picture, but they make the mistake of attaching every man to the patriocentric way of thinking, and ignore the mutualities that occur in male and female relations”

    I was referring to feminists, NOT patriarchals, as it were. You seemed to skip my mention of feminists in your mind.

  42. Jennifer says:

    LOL Yes CL, quite the reality. Don’t worry about me, go back to 7man and blowdry your own undies.

  43. Jennifer says:

    No doubt I seem very dramatic right now, and I am partly feeling that way after a long day and memories of this struggle before. I do not in fact claim to know what goes on in your head, CL, or 7man’s for each other, and don’t care to. The fact is, CL, if I actually bought what you churn as truth for all men and women, going so far as to compare the male/female relations to historical cases of rape, you have no idea what harm I’d be allowing myself; I would distrust and despise most men and let damage be done to my own future relationship. But I’m not going to let your words, or those of any wounded feminists, do that to my way of thinking. Not anymore.

    Brent, I apologize for the crude derailment. Happy Easter and take care.

    [B: Apology accepted.]

  44. bskillet81 says:

    This discussion is de-railing the purpose of this particular post, which is to help men who are going through a great deal of pain as a result of a wife’s infidelity. Also, Jennifer’s recent comments are laden with feminist jargon (to wit, accusing us of being “patrio-centric”), which isn’t consistent with the purpose of the site.

    I do not mind a good argument, but I will be making other posts in the near future that will be more conducive to these more adversarial discussions. So I am putting Jennifer in comment moderation until tomorrow.

  45. Jennifer:

    “The male occupies the female body, and she swallows him whole and holds him by his most vulnerable organs inside her; I see this as a mutual giving.”

    Have you ever actually had sex, Jennifer?

  46. bskillet81 says:

    Okay, I’ve removed Jennifer from moderation. Good day!

  47. Brendan says:

    Exactly, DC.

  48. Dalrock says:

    Bskillet81,

    Excellent work. The intensity of derailment should be proof to you that you are touching on a very sensitive topic. You are destroying deeply cherished falsehoods. See the reaction to my post several weeks back on why so many wives wish their husbands would cheat for another example.

    @Deti

    10. Claim: Christian women are less prone to divorce than nonChristian women.
    Truth: This is only somewhat true. The US national divorce rate is around 50%. The divorce rate for all those claiming Christ is 38%.

    It is actually worse than this. The study referenced by USA Today as well as our friend Glenn Stanton found that the religiously unaffiliated divorced at 50%, Evangelicals who didn’t attend church divorced at 60%, and 38% if the couple attended church weekly. 38% is the best case number, and not typical of Christian marriage. It was the “good news” the researcher found after data mining the results.

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  50. joe says:

    “The one-sidedness of it, like she’s the only one who’s vulnerable, is what disgusts me.”

    Jennifer, you and so many other women have been so damaged by feminism that you do not realize that vulnerability is one of the most beautiful things about a woman. As a man, I will fight and die to protect your vulnerabilites.

    “The male occupies the female body, and she swallows him whole and holds him by his most vulnerable organs inside her; I see this as a mutual giving.”

    There is no such thing as mutual conquest or “giving” for men. If we have to compete against you then we will not stop fighting until there is a conqueror and a vanquished. Neither side will ever trust and certainly not love the other before that point. And after that point, there is only resentment. However, if a womans ALLOWS a man to “conquer” her (ie submits) because she trusts him, he will in turn surrender to her from time to time. Your willing submission tells a man that you are of absolutlely not threat to him. He can trust you. Only then can he put down sword, shield and armor. Only then will you know the real man. Mutual conquest,never. Mutual surrender, sometimes. It is in those moments of mutual surrender that you find true love. If a woman insists on always competing with a man,even in the bedroom, then she will never know true love or true love making.

  51. deti says:

    A big part of the problem and the reason for the topic derailment I think, is the use of the terms “dominate” and “dominant”.

    Here’s how most women raised in today’s feminist culture respond when the terms “dominate” and “dominant” are used in intergender relations:

    “Dominant! Dominate! He has no right to dominate me, tell me what to do and how to do it! He has no right to say when we’re going to have sex! I ain’t no doormat! I have my own thoughts, wants, needs, hopes and desires! What does he think, our sex life is going to be all whips, chains, ballgags and “50 Shades of Grey”? I have to do whatever he wants, when he wants, how he wants? That’s not how it’s going to be. Our sex life has to be equal! We’re equal! He’s not better than me! He “conquers” me, but I also “conquer” him! I, as the woman, tame the wild beast of a man that I love and I make him mine, all mine!”

    But that’s not the way it works with female attraction, and this is where the Jennifers of the world get it wrong. If she “conquers” him, then what? He did not fight for her. She is not convinced that he can or will fight for her. She grows afraid, insecure, fearful. She does not love him. She does not want him. She loses attraction. The relationship falls apart.

    No. First he must conquer her. He must take her. She must allow herself to be taken by him. She must give himself to her, surrender to his conquest. She must surrender to him FIRST. She must agree to be ruled, consent to his ruling over her, submit to his lordship. His “surrender” comes in the form of his laying down his armor and sword.

    It does not come in the form of her overpowering him in some form. For if she must conquer him, win him over, he has not taken her. He has not “won” anything. And if he has not “won”, then she will lose attraction for him. If he has not “won”, then she will take up arms and fight him — initially in the hopes that he will pick up his sword and overpower her, so that she can be secure in his protection. (This is the origin of the shit test — she needs evidence that he will stand his ground, that he will fight if necessary, that he will not give in to her.) If he will not lift his sword, she will either live with him in perpetual fear, insecurity and resentment; or leave in the hopes of finding another man who will not shy away from unsheathing his weapon.

  52. bskillet81 says:

    I think you are on to something here.

  53. CL says:

    Bravo, deti. I do wonder about these women who put so much energy into fighting their natures then have their sneaky hand-in-panties moments with their Kindles and 50 Shades of Grey. It’s a bit pathetic.

  54. deti says:

    Maybe, B. I borrowed heavily from John Eldredge and “Wild at Heart”. Eldredge has a point that the man needs a battle to fight, a beauty to rescue and a journey to complete so he can fulfill his destiny (or something like that).

    Women don’t really love their men the way men love women. Women respect their men. She cannot respect a man who does not make her feel safe. And she will not feel safe until she knows that he can provide a place for her safety and security. It is only in his loving protection and provision that she can truly be herself and give herself to him.

  55. bskillet81 says:

    Or, in other words, “Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you.”

    As an aside, how are Eldredge’s books? Generally, I am reticent to read any author who is too popular in evangelical circles, with the exception of Ravi Zacharias. I’ve found that popularity and teaching heresy and/or foolishness are unfortunately highly correlated in modern evangelicalism.

  56. CL says:

    @ bskillit

    Like you, I am reluctant to read those kinds of books, but “Wild at Heart” was excellent. I learned a lot about some of my own desires that I had previously thought “silly” and tried to supress within myself, even though it is mostly about men. The female counterpart to that book, “Captivating”, wasn’t as good but much of that was written by Stasi Eldredge and was full of useless anecdotes and too meandering for me.

    Women who want to understand men, and men who want to undersatnd themselves better, could do worse than reading “Wild at Heart”. I much preferred John’s writing style to Stasi’s.

  57. deti says:

    “It’s okay to be angry. Christians today will tell you anger is never justified. And yet they claim to serve a Lord who actually chased people out of the Temple with a whip like a mad man. Ignore all that. Be angry, but do not sin.

    Next, you need to be clear that this is not your fault.”

    Good one, Bskilett. I’m angry too.

    I’ve been married 15, almost 16 years. I don’t think my wife has cheated on me, but she’s admitted lying to me. She lied to me about her premarital sex partner count. Let’s just say it was a bit higher than she represented to me before marriage. This was before her conversion to Christ.

    I’m angry that a woman felt the need to lie about her sex partner count because it was too high to be honest about. I’m angry she lied to me about it. I’m angry at her for lying to me. I’m angry that no one — not her parents, not her grandmothers, not her sister, not her friends, NO ONE — sat her down and told her the basic truth that girls can’t rack up high partner counts.

    I’m angry that I live in a society that says all this is OK. I’m angry that we live in a society that says men and women are the same. I’m angry that we live in a society that encourages women to indulge their basest behaviors, to act like men, to BECOME men. I’m angry that our society is turning women into shrewish, nasty, unattractive, coarse, ugly, disease-ridden harridans who aren’t fit to house sit a pet, much less be entrusted with the care of a child. And I’m angry that these women think they are God’s gift to mankind merely because once or twice they snagged an Alpha to sex them up for a night or three.

    I’m angry at my parents, pastors, teachers and other people who were in authority over me when I was a boy and a young man. I’m angry at them for being totally oblivious to the changing world around them and sending me into a war zone with no weapons. I’m angry at myself for making poor dating choices. I’m angry at myself for making a marriage choice which was, well, suboptimal and might not have been made had all the facts been known. I’m angry at myself for settling. I’m angry at myself for wasting time, money and effort dating women who were no good for me. I’m angry at myself for ignoring the few good women I did have the good fortune to run across in college. I’m angry at myself for hurting them, for failing to treat them as a man treats a woman. I’m angry at myself because I’ve made choices I cannot take back and cannot undo. I’m angry at myself because I have unwittingly exposed myself and my children to risks over which I have only limited control.

    I’m angry because nothing my parents, pastors and teachers told me about women, dating, relationships and marriage was true. Not a single thing was true. I’m angry because Game works. I’m angry because I neg my wife and she thinks it’s cute. I’m angry because I find out at age 43 that women actually LIKE being a** up for sex and LIKE being jackhammered. I’m angry because my wife likes being sexually mauled and no one ever told me. I’m angry because my being nice to her actually REDUCES her attraction for me. I’m angry because being aloof and saying “I love you” a little less actually INCREASES her attraction. I’m angry because hanging back and making her come to me actually makes her like me more. I’m angry because I’m angry because the truth about women is,,,, well, ugly. I’m angry because Roissy’s Sixteen Commandments actually have a ring of truth. I’m angry because it’s not true that Christian women are better for dating and marriage. They’re no better and in some respects, Churchian women are actually WORSE than their secular sisters.

    I’m angry because I can’t go back. I cannot go back and plug back in to the Matrix. I’m angry because the destruction wrought by feminism has probably destroyed things to the point that they cannot be repaired. I’m angry because we men let this happen.

  58. Mark says:

    When a man wants to sin he thinks:

    “I know it’s wrong, but I want to do it anyway, so I’ll put up with the consequences.”

    When a woman wants to sin she thinks:

    “I want to do this, so therefore it’s not wrong.

  59. bskillet81 says:

    Wow. Excellent observation.

  60. Father Marker says:

    @deti Regarding claim 11 I just read this article that claims that sexual activity amongst christian girls is higher than that found in secular society.

    http://www.boundless.org/2005/articles/a0001562.cfm
    cf
    http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Adolescent_sexuality_in_the_United_States&oldid=484992672

  61. Father Marker says:

    I’ve started writing a document aim especially at young men in my church (SDA) to try and make them aware that their situation is nothing special. In part of the book I’ve written about some of the potential tactics used by women to try and cause a divorce and end up still looking morally proper in the eyes of the church commmunity. I’m sharing it because I think it is relevant. This section is a work in progress so criticism will be greatfully accepted.

    ——————————————

    I wish he would cheat.
    A lot of women decide that they are not haaaaaappy after a few years of marriage. For many pagan women the solution is simply to bail and make off with the kids and at least half of all his assets.

    Now for quite a few other pagan women and most Christian women it is not so simple. If she bails she is going to be looked down upon by both men and women alike within the Adventist church. So she needs to find a way to engineer the break up of the marriage in such a way as to be able to have everyone pin the blame upon him.

    “Women don’t see this as promiscuous behavior because they believe that they are “cutting their losses,” while maximizing their successes. It’s not any different from PUA behavior.”[5]

    So here are a number of steps these girls will take if they are trying to get a divorce in a manner that will make her come up smelling like roses.

    1. Denial of sex for trivial reasons. The intention here is to try and encourage him to look outside the marriage for fulfilment of his sexual needs. As a bloke the signature of this tactic is that no matter what you do, you will never ever satisfy her ever increasing demands upon what you have to successfully complete before she will yield to your needs. Not only that but those demands will be random and capricious. As you will have observed by now she is going against the injunction of St Paul which speaks against such deprivation. 1Cr 7:5.
    2. Lack of communication of any kind. The silent treatment if you will.
    3. Violence in the hope that you as the man will respond in kind. In today’s judicial/political environment she can then claim abuse and have a reason for calling for divorce. This is despite the fact that there is no biblical precedent for permitting divorce under such reasoning.
    4. Separation by moving out of the house either into her own apartment or back with her parents. Hopefully this will drive him to the point where he will file for divorce. I saw this happen with one Adventist female teacher. When he finally figured that she was not coming back he filed and left her looking like a sweet innocent thing even though it was her actions that pushed him. The smart man will deny her the opportunity by remaining celibate and on his own until either she reconciles or makes her own moves.
    5. Try and do something to push him into unbelief as the bible permits unbelievers to depart the relationship under some circumstances.

  62. will says:

    You may despise the ownership of your body by man. But when the right man comes along your hindbrain will betray you and you will helplessly submit to him. Unless you have the willpower to resist your biology.

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  66. Jennifer says:

    “I know it’s wrong, but I want to do it anyway, so I’ll put up with the consequences.”

    Not always, Mark. Many men have tried to weasel their ways out of consequences too, starting with Adam.

  67. Jennifer says:

    You think sex is entirely an act of a woman submitting to a man? No wonder I hate this kind of trash thinking. Considering the fact that he’s giving his privates to me, I somehow doubt I’ll be the only one vulnerable.

  68. Jennifer says:

    Have you ever seen it as something other than “what men do to women?” Hopefully.

  69. Jennifer says:

    I agree that vulnerability is beautiful, Joe. Mutual surrender, not conquering, is what I believe in. If you draw a picture of sex to me that is the man ruling, and the woman “surrendering”, like he’s battling HER, I will despise your picture more than any feminism drew for me.

  70. Matthew says:

    So: I think we can all agree that Jennifer needs a spanking of Biblical proportions.

  71. Pingback: Christian Adultery: Heads She Wins, Tails He Loses | Christian Men's Defense Network

  72. This is such a sad thing to see, especially among people who are supposed to be “christian.” As I have read down through these posts, I have been saddened by all the ways people were hurt and more deeply disheartened by the way some are hurting each other on the site.

    The originator made it to air his feelings about something that happened in his past. He said that anger is not sin but to not be angry as a result and invited others to find solace by airing their grievances as well. Only one post actually followed that advice out of all of them. One man, Deti, said what he was angry about and included himself in it, but only in answer to argument.

    Jennifer: your comments in the beginning were respectful and interesting, but arguing your side alone against many turned into a mob attack upon you and has only continued to decline into chaos. I am very sorry for the way many have treated you on this site. Debates about “equality” and “mutualities” will not be fostered on a site made by an enraged man for other enraged men. Your “pearls” are being cast to those deaf to your cause and will do no good here.

    Deti: disgusting…..I can’t say much else about that perverse list you think is good to print on any public venue.

    Matthew: grow up.

    To the maker of the page: Has your outflow of anger against women in general as a reaction to the one who hurt you helped anyone yet? Hatred flows from hatred and love from love. Please read thoughtfully through each post and ask yourself which is being spread here.

    I will be praying for you all, but will not engage further.

    God’s blessings to all,
    TH

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  74. Jennifer says:

    Midnight, you’re awesome! Thanks so much for your soothing words; sorry I didn’t see them until now.

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